I've never paid much attention to mod load order.

Just slapped them in and never had a problem.


But I intend to really expand my mod list and I keep noting the tutorials advising loading mods in the correct order.

Yet there is very little mentioned on what exactly is the correct order in the tutorials.

Obviously, listing all the potential mods out there in proper order is impossible for any tutorial to list.

So I'm guessing the order is inuitive based on mod type.


So could someone elaborate on the theory a bit?

My philosphy, as I've mentioned before, is very simple: the more important the mod, the lower it goes on my list.

I tend to put quest mods down low and any mods with game tweaks. The two merged lists go after that. Last of all is my home-made balance mod, which contains the last word on how I want my game to run.

Good advice. Also check the readme files for any special advice on load order, but that's pretty rare.

Ummm, excuse my ignorance but how do you control the load order?

So I would start with the little mods like weapons, clothing, singular items.

Then move to things like better bodies and other system modifying effects.

Follow that with housing and small location mods.

And close it out with big location mods, quests, etc.


How does that sound?

The first that are loaded are your masters, then any large quests. After that, every thing is sorted by date and what they depend on.

BTW, Wyre Mash does do these sort of things pretty well.

This post has been edited by MercZ: Apr 10 2005, 11:01 PM

I discounted mentioning the masters as obvious.



But you and Pseron Wyrd contradict each other.

You put the quests first and he puts them last.


I'm beginning to feel this is a fairly vague art form.

This post has been edited by JuntaJoe: Apr 10 2005, 11:04 PM

You should probably go with Pseron Wyrd way, he's been on these forums a lot longer then i have, he will probably know the best way.

Perhaps if other long term members can toss in their experiences then we could generate a rough guide for this need.

At present, all the tutorials just skip right past this step with a fast comment.

Then we could organize the advice in another thread and have it linked to the various tutorials here and at other sites.

I generally use TES Tool and update time whenever I want to move a mod around.

Another way is to open the Construction Set and save the mods in such a way as to get the order you want, but that's a royal pain.

There is an easier way using the Construction Set - and that is to open it up. Then highlight each mod you want to move (click once, not twice) and put something in the 'description of mod' area - even a space will do. This will update the time and the header on the mod.

The basic problem with each of these methods is that they simply move the mod to the end of the list and you still will have a lot of playing around to do.

There are utilities out there that will move the mod around - up and down without moving it to the end - but they only work on one at a time. So I guess you need to play around and discover what works best for you.

So what kind of order do you like, Lady Rae?

I put mods that change the heads/hair usually at the top. I let the middle take care of itself - unless I've run into something mentioned in a readme, those I try to follow. I put 'tweaks' at the bottom - things like female versions of armor, clothes - that type of thing. Next I put any mods I've created for myself - usually homemade races using other peoples skins and clothing/armor from a number of different mods. Then the merged level list and merged object files. And last is the file that I use to change appearance of the NPCs around morrowind. Not only do I like a lot of different faces, but I also like a lot of different races and types of outfits.

Thanks.


Ok, I'm going to just bump this twice a day for a week and gather input from the more experienced members as they drop by.


Perhaps by then a real firm pattern will emerge that I can consolidate.

Then I'll drop a pm to several of the tutorial authors and see if they wish to insert it into the existing tutorials out there.

Junta:

For what it's worth, I'm working on a similar project. As far as I've been able to discover, there are no tutorials for mod load order out there. I'm kinda in the process of writing one, but since I know so little about it myself, its developing rather slowly.

I do feel there's a need for such a tutorial among the unwashed masses out there -- of which, by the way, I count myself a proud member.

Good! So subscribe to this thread and I'll keep bumping it for a while.

At some point the advice will display a pattern if we can collect enough opinions.

It might not be scientific, but it will have the virtue of being well tested.


So any of you experienced members that use a whole slew of mods, and have few errors, please donate your advice for this project.

The more we hear, the easier it will be to find the best pattern.

There is no correct order which is valid for all mods and everyone. You have to find the correct order for YOUR modlist yourself. This can be a long process of trial&error.

When I do a fresh install of Morrowind and mods, I first just unpack the mods into the Data Files directory and keep the order as it is, that is in which order the mods have been released. That is pretty random. Now I use the JustFixIt in TESTool but trash the MergedDialogs again.
Then I adjust a couple of mods, like Necessities needs to load after all areamods with NOM compatibility. Such requirements are usually explained in the Readme files, so no vodoo.
So far the easy part.
Next I adjust a couple of mods I learned by experience that the order needs to be revised. "Wrong" order = got errors. "Right" order = works. Simple as that, but unfortunately you cannot know unless you actually got problems and figured out which mod caused it. It is just trial&error the hard way. Example: Need to move Lokken up on the list when running together with Ald-Vendras Castle Avalon add-on. Why? Because otherwise the landscape is messed. How do I know? Well, had it the wrong order in an earlier game and saw the mess when going there. Again, no vodoo. :)
Last I put my selfmade esps with some fixes and balance adjustments, as I want them to overwrite anything else. Finally recreate MergedObejcts and MergedLeveledList with TESTool, so those are added last. Anything I add to an ongoing game comes after that. Always add mods to the end of the list, else you get doubling. Also I don't install new big stuff to an ongoing game, or update mods. Adding smaller things like house mods is okay, but for anything bigger I start a new game or just wait with the update.

I use a simply yet very effective tool called "touch" to change the load order. It just changes the timestamp of a file:

ESP_A - 2005-01-01
ESP_B - 2005-01-04
ESP_C - 2005-01-05

Want to swap ESP_B and ESP_C? Just set the filedate of ESP_C to something like 2005-01-03.

Resaving the ESP in the CS is possible but painful as that only adjusts the date to current time. Much easier to just change the timestamp yourself. Stock Windows cannot do this easily (why not, Microsoft??), so some utility like "touch" is needed. Any other tool that can change filedates would work fine, too.

Is above process perfect? Certainly not, but works for me. Getting Morrowind to run with many mods without problems is an art of itself. Been more than once I deinstalled everything out of frustration and took a break from Morrowind.

Hmm, got one of those myself. Call it THE Game Tweak Collection. Was the basis of the Empirical Morrowind page. Have others as well for each category (Clothing, Armor & Weapons, etc.). Keeps the mod list simple.

When Pseron says he puts all of his at the bottom of the list, I believe that's because those are loaded last. What this means is, if there are any conflicts, the esp that's loaded last will override the one it's conflicting with.

Get TESTool. Run the leveled list merger, and the Object Merger. Then use the "Manage active plugins" to sort the order. Most important plugins near the bottom. Merged ESP's at the very bottom.

Edit: Forgot to mention that you need to use Aerelorn's leveled list resequencer too. TesTool has a bug in it's merging of leveled lists. Anyone have a link? I forgot where I got it.

This post has been edited by Illtempered: Apr 11 2005, 02:59 AM

I guess it might be relevant to post WHY mods should be loaded in the order that Pseron suggests (which I agree with). As Illtempered stated, mods loaded last will override mods loaded before. So you want to load simple, little mods first, like mods that make the signs readable, and mods that give all the potions recognizable icons, etc. because they don't have really anything all that important and crucial which can cause conflicts. Conversely, large quest mods and game setting mods, and mods that do things like let you ride dragons, horses, boats, etc. can contain all manner of complicated scripts which can get a bit tricky, especially when savegames can get dirtied by adding and removing mods while still trying to use the same save.

Ps33 I like your suggestions (I use "touch" occasionally myself when I just need to make one file the newest) but I would suggestion ONLY using the JustFixIt button before ANY savegames have been created, if at all -and as you say, never keep the merged dialog esp.

Just a few thoughts anyway.

Yes, agreed. All I babbled above applies before starting a character. Afterwards I only use TESTool for checking and/or cleaning new esps (this is reasonably safe) and remerging levelled lists (if it cannot be avoided).

Additional to my above post, one should not swap the order in a running game. *IF* you really need to do so, it's a bit more complex:

ESP_A 2005-01-01
ESP_B 2005-01-04
ESP_C 2005-01-05

Now we need to swap B and C in an ongoing game:
1) Create an empty dummy.esp and assign it the same file date as ESP_B.
2) "touch" ESP_B so it loads last

ESP_A 2005-01-01
dummy.esp 2005-01-04
ESP_C 2005-01-05
[...]
ESP_B 2005-04-11

Why so? Because this way we avoid changing the modindex of all ESPs subsequent to the removed ESP_B, which would cause doubling as explained in depth elsewhere (Wyre Mesh documentation somewhere).

Good Luck on your project. It's certainly worthwhile. I'll look forward to reading the result.

The load order described above is correct for sure when you prepare mods to start a new game.

But I have noticed an unpleasant feature with adding mods to a current game. Say I have in game mods with quests, scripts, NPCs and so on. I add a new mode, even something most simple and harmless. This new mode has nothing in common with 'old' modes in use. I mean there are no conflicts that could be seen in CS.

Meanwhile I experienced sometimes serious problems with those 'old' mods, if new one is loaded before them. Problems are usual: doubling, missing NPCs, scripts not found etc. I am sure, this is not a matter of conflict between specific mods, this is just because the load order has changed.

Otherwise, everything is OK if to put the new mode near the end of loadlist. If possible, I follow this rule.

This post has been edited by Mordenkainen: Apr 11 2005, 07:40 AM

Don't do that. If you add mods to an ongoing game, add them to the end of the modlist. If you don't, all mods loading after the new mod will be prone to doubling and other errors, because their index number has changed.

Let's say you have 100 mods installed, now add #101. If you add it at position #50, all mods formerly #50, #51, ..., #100 will now become #51, #52, ..., #101. This causes problems. So add your mod as #101 and you are safe as your existing indices have not been changed.
Make a backup of Morrowind.ini before adding the mod, then add the mod and compare the new ini file with the old to check the order is ok.

I agree. It must be said in the thread. And it means that a new 'small' mod is loaded after 'big' ones...

One more remark. It is impossible to keep existing indices if new added mod is *.esm.

Good question. I'd asked the same recently on the Rethan Manor forum as I stumbled over exactly this problem and went to read a bit about the whole issue.

Basically you need to apply some tricks. If you are smart (I was not), you create a couple of dummy esp files as the first loaded esps when starting a new game, then you could later drop in an esm in place of a dummy. Another idea was to merge the first two esps and thus make room for one esm. This would work if the first esps are head replacers or something like that. The third idea was to convert the esm to esp and load that the usual way, end of list. That third one seems to be the most convinient approach, except there is a real good reason the file is an esm. In that case, I don't think there is a solution other than starting a new game or dealing with the doubling issues.
I hope Bethedsa will come up with something better for Oblivion.

Excellent! Look at all the new advice.

I certainly hope ndelavesha is subscribed to this.


Anyway, it's been a few hours since the last post and I'm bumbing it up so I can catch others who haven't seen the project yet.

Good stuff, but for clarification when you say 'tweaks' I take that to mean bug fixes as well? Should bug fixes be the last thing before leveled lists?

I rarely pay much attention to load order unless (1) it makes very clear in the readme to pay attention or (2) I find problems.

Morrowind is, in a way, counter-intuitive in that it is the ones at the bottom of the list, with the later save-dates, that overwrite the ones at the top. If you are content with every later release to overwrite the earlier one (e.g. with face packs) you rarely need to worry about load order.

Big Exception:

Necessities of Morrowind:

This does have to be loaded last, or any NoM-compatible mods simple won't work - and what is more - NoM will no longer work when you install them.

Fixing them is easy: Open up the Construction Set. Select the 'master' files (Morrowind, +Tribunal +Bloodmoon if necessary) and Necessities of Morrowind, making NoM the active file. Save without changing anything. That makes NoM the latest file (or near-as-dammit the latest) in your list.

You can also use Wrye Mash to manually set the date to 2008 if you like, which is useful to set NoM to in order to spare yourself the trouble of updating the mod every time any NoM compatible mod comes out.

junta:

You betcha. I'm trying to keep up with it (I'm bogged down in a killer week at the moment) and I'm taking notes.

Here are a few of my questions:

Regarding TesTool, what does the “Merged Levelled Lists for Active Plugins” do, precisely?

How does the one use the various options under the “Manage Active Plugins” button (“Load Order,” “Update Time,” and “Update Header”)?

What’s “touch” and how does it work?

How does one merge plugins, or merge .esp files to make an .esm file?

Otherwise, great advice about adding mods in saved games. Definitely worth tacking on the end of a good “How-to” guide, and simply having acess to that one piece of info will undoubtedly save thousands of gamers thousands of hours of uneccessary worry and headaches.

Leveled lists - the game adds increasingly valuable items and increasingly tough creatures and NPCs to the world in response to player levels. It does this through leveled lists, which keep track of the player's level, gradually increasing the quality of items and toughness of enemies. The reason why you will never see a Golden Saint when you start a brand-new game is because the leveled lists prevent it.

When two mods alter the same leveled list the one nearer the bottom will over-ride the one above it. We get around this by extracting the lists and merging the changes into one .esp which goes at the bottom of your mod list, over-riding everything.

TESTool - you highlight the 'Manage Active Plugins' line then hit the 'Execute' button. This brings up a list of your plugins. To move one of the plugins to the end, highlight it and hit the 'Update Time' button. To get rid of the 'One of your mods is dependant on a version...' message (I forget the exact text) highlight a mod and hit 'Update Header'. To be honest, I've never found a good use for the 'Load Order' button. I just move mods around with the 'Load Time' button myself.

Merging mods is fairly simple. I use the construction set to do it. Load the mods you wish to merge into the CS, go to File>Combine Loaded Plugins. Click 'Yes', give your new combined mod a name and activate it in Data Files. That's about it.

I would stay away from converting ESPs to ESMs until you know a bit more about what you're doing, personally. Converting the wrong mod to an ESM will prevent the game from initializing.

Touch I'd never heard of it until reading this thread, so I can't comment on it.

This post has been edited by Pseron Wyrd: Apr 12 2005, 12:50 PM

It is a simple commandline tool used to change file dates. It originally comes from Unix systems, it is not included in stock Windows. I personally have it from a bigger Unix compatibility pack (MSys, to be exact), but that's overkill if you don't need that stuff otherwise. But I saw some standalone touch.exe somewhere for download, ask Google if you want it.

touch -t 200504012230 foobar.esp
This would set the timestamp of the file foobar.esp to 2005-04-01 22:30

touch foobar.esp
This sets the timestamp of foobar.esp to current time

Extremely handy. I've read about people changing system time before saving a mod in the CS. I find above way easier, though the commandline usage scares rather computer-phobic people away.

Pseron:

Really great explanation. Thanks!

When you say you use a tool called "touch" to change the time stamp, where can I get this tool? I had a look at the tools sticky but couldn't find the link.

edit: forget it: someone answered the question while I was typing

This post has been edited by Eriame: Apr 12 2005, 01:26 PM

There is also a tool called (strangely enough) reorder plugins which allows you to move any file to exactly where you want it. Should be a link to it somewhere in here if you search.

edit---requires having java installed to work though....but it does work.

This post has been edited by harborgolfer: Apr 12 2005, 01:35 PM

Found a touch.exe standalone here: http://site.n.ml.org/info/_msdos-fileutils/

Open a DOS shell. Type "set" and look at the directories mentioned after "PATH=...". Put touch.exe somewhere there so it is found when you are working in another directory.
Type "touch --help" to get some overview. You need to use it from a DOS shell.

It's a tool used by programmers, Unix admins and other alien geeks. It scares most people because it requires usage of the DOS shell. Not so surprised it's not mentioned on the sticky utilities list. If you are familiar with DOS, you won't have trouble with it, though.

Figured it was a good time to bump this again.


Toss in your best load order advice for the FAQ project.

ps33, do you have download link for msys? I'm having trouble finding it. Also, does it have a grep command?

I also recommend Properties Plus - it integrates into the Windows shell, and may be a good option for the not-so-geeky type of users . Simply right-click on any file, choose "Properties Plus", and you can change its creation and modification date.

This post has been edited by Erstam: Apr 13 2005, 03:07 AM

Been 12 hours. So bumpity bump.


Looking for load order anecdotal advice for the FAQ.

Wow, not a word in a day.

Ok boys and girls, your help is valuable.

We are looking to make a FAQ on mod loading order.

This is a glaringly empty hole in the various help guides.


Your anecdotal evidence will really help us. Even if you see similar advice already posted, you help in two ways. You confirm what has been already written as good advice. You also might use phrasing that is easier to write up.

Help your fellow mod users and makers use those mods to the best effect and enhance everyone's mod experience.

Pitch in with your comments and advice.

It appears, ndelavesha, that my cajoling efforts are for naught.

No one else cares to spend a few moments time helping.


My advice is to take what we have and try to cobble it together.

Perhaps a more cohesive document might garner some opinion.


Do you wish to do this on your own as you had planned originally or would you like me to help? We could do it here in this thread or wherever online that you like. I own a non-MW forum where we could work if you like. Link is in my sig. Just post your desires in this thread and I'll follow your lead.

Well, there's not much to say, really: put your important stuff at the bottom, read all the readme's you get (they'll sometimes have information on loading order) and keep an eye on this forum for word of conflicts that might be resolved by reversing the sequence of two or more mods. That's about it.

Mod lists are a pretty specific thing. They are unique to each player. Not only to each player but from game to game.

There are so many mods out there and everybody's mod list is so different that it's hard to come up with broad, general guidelines on load order that will be helpful to everybody. I can't tell you what to put at the top or bottom of your list - only you can decide that.

For instance, I might put 'White Wolf of LoKKen' at the bottom of my list because I want to make sure the quests work perfectly but you might only want to walk around the landscape so you're probably going to want to put 'White Wolf of LoKKen' at the top of your list.

Most people will tell you that mod list rule #1 is to put your merged leveled list and merged object ESPs at the very bottom of your mod list but I never do. I've never done it once since Horatio released the first merged leveled list tool and I made my first merged leveled list plugin. My home-made balance mod is more important to me so it goes last. I've even had one or two other mods between it and my merged ESPs, from time to time. So even rule #1 is not going to apply to everyone.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be unhelpful but I can't think what to tell you besides what's already been said in this thread above.

This post has been edited by Pseron Wyrd: Apr 15 2005, 04:09 PM

Actually, PW, if not for you then we'd probably not have the data we already have. You have helped tremendously.

My admonitions were certainly not directed at those who've already contributed.

I was just irked that with so many experienced modders around that only a few wanted to weigh in. I would have thought modders would have their self interests at heart to see that mod users used their product properly.

Anyway, perhaps a rough draft is needed to get more input to refine the guide. Give everyone a single page to scrutinize for errors or omissions.

Modding and know about load orders really are two differnt things.

Someone good at crafting clothes may not necessarily be good and mod organization - and vice versa.

ps33:Does this advice also pertain to the act of merging mods with the Construction Set, or is there a way around the problem?

just going to throw in my 2 cents worth on this, suppose could be an example on how to use it...

I've been having a problem in my game where some mod is removing the bodies of the entire orc race. So its just clothing/armor and floating heads (heads were alright, am runnign better heads so might be why still there). 2 new orc races were created by whichever mod it is too I think.
Anyways I spent about 2 days looking through readmees without finding anything (have bout 200 mods), typing ori ingame didn't help. Finally I loaded my better bodies up in the construction set saved it to put it at top of load order, and poof, now the orcs have their bodies back.

Bump.

There is now a project in progress with hopes to make a permanent advice primer linked in one or more major advice sites.

Besides the update, this is a bump to gather more insights. I know most of the fundamentals have already been mentioned, but perhaps someone else has a snippet that we could add.

We'll be sure to post a proper link when the WIP has produced a good rough draft.